ADtempt-003.5-Advice001
Sun, 6/28 1:29PM • 35:21
SPEAKERS
Chris Hanna, Sam McKinney, John Fish

Chris Hanna  00:00
Huh, this feels different. 

John Fish  00:02
What does man? This episode. We don't have a brief, we haven't stolen any jokes, and we aren't selling anything.

Sam McKinney  00:07
Well, this episode is going to be a little bit different. We're pulling back the curtain to give our audience some insight into who we are and what we do.

Chris Hanna  00:14
So we are selling ourselves.

Sam McKinney  00:17
Well, maybe not

Chris Hanna  00:19
Yet. Welcome back to ADtempted, the show where we attempt to give advice to people who probably don't need it. I'm john. I'm a copywriter.

Sam McKinney  00:32
I'm Sam, and I'm an art director.

John Fish  00:34
I'm Chris and I'm a copywriter. Today's episode is going to be a first for our little show. Instead of selling a product. We wanted to share some of our experiences: who we are, what we do and why we do it.

Sam McKinney  00:45
sounds good to me. Where do you guys want to start?

John Fish  00:48
One place that we should maybe start is our titles, because for some people, they probably have no idea what that is.

Chris Hanna  00:56
So we all know there's an art director and a copywriter, but not everyone knows the Difference. Can you guys explain that to me?

John Fish  01:03
I'll explain it to our audience and to you, John, at the same time. Okay, so I guess I can start with copywriters since that's what I am. So copywriter is basically responsible for everything that is copy based. The way I like to think of it is that whatever text you see on any sort of ad, or any sort of scripts that you might hear in a radio or a TV commercial, that's the copywriters job. But just like an art director, copywriters are also responsible for the conceptual side of things. So the whole idea is sort of in the hands of the copywriter, as well as the art director. And every partnership is different. Usually there's one copywriter and one art director. Sometimes the copywriter will take more of the conceptual side of things because the art director has to do, er I guess spend more time, on the art side. Maybe Sam can speak a little bit more to that. But other times it's equal partnership. Sometimes there's an art actor who literally just does everything and the copywriter just sits back, and I don't know, what do other copywriters who don't do anything all day do? 

Sam McKinney  02:07
Write scripts for themselves. 

Chris Hanna  02:11
Yeah, so Sam, why don't you talk a little bit about art direction?

Sam McKinney  02:15
The way that I think about it is copywriters, and art directors essentially are the same job in a way. Because first and foremost, you you're concepting, right and come up with ideas. You are there to talk back and forth, bounce ideas off each other and come up with something that's going to get people's interest. 

John Fish  02:32
Yeah, 

Sam McKinney  02:32
But then it breaks down to your secondary skills. The secondary skills for copywriter, obviously Chris went through that. Art direction, you do everything visually related. So you make ads, you make banners, you work with directors, you're on set, you're making sure everything works cohesively and kind of visually makes sense. So the more you can do with art, Photoshop, Illustrator, drawing stuff, the better off you are To be able to advance in your career.

John Fish  03:02
Yeah, I know that when, I guess at my last gig, a lot of the art directors who got certain jobs, it really depended on their skills. So there were some who were really, really good with Premiere, for example. And so they would get certain video projects because they knew how to work with it. Others, of course, we're better at things like illustration. And so they would get more of that, like, aesthetic-feel sort of projects.

Sam McKinney  03:27
Yes, yeah, there's, there's a lot of that stuff. And the nice thing about art direction is you need to know or you get to work on so many different things that you don't, if you're better at one thing, you work on that more, but then you also get to do everything else. It's a lot of fun. Never the same.

Chris Hanna  03:48
Oh, yeah. 

John Fish  03:49
And don't worry guys, for you out there. There's a lot of people at the agency that back these positions up. If they're editors or designers, or people that just are able to make things a little bit more polished. The copywriter and the art director are the people that come up with the idea and are able to present it in a way that makes the client go, "Fuck yeah."

Sam McKinney  04:11
Yeah. It's very much a team effort on everyone's part. Depends on how big the agency is. If it's a small agency you might be on your own at some points. But usually not.

John Fish  04:24
Yeah, john, maybe you can speak to this too. But I feel like even within copywriting sometimes there's certain sort of specialties. Like I know it, my agency, the last agency that I worked at, there were some people who were like the go to script people. There are other people who were probably better with like social copy. Or sometimes there would even be people who were just like the headline guys, like whenever you have like a headline, they were the ones that would always beat out everyone else's ideas or lines or whatever. Did you ever feel like that was sort of a thing with copywriters?

Chris Hanna  04:59
Yeah I mean, I can't speak directly to the agency side of it. But it does seem like that is kind of my experience working in teams and even just working on this podcast. I think in order to work fluidly, people kind of have to have roles, right. And I think people kind of almost self select into those roles. I don't know, I just can't really speak too much to that point, Chris. But I think I definitely think you're right.

Sam McKinney  05:25
At my agency, there's there's certain people who they go by voices, like there's one guy who's very uplifting and upbeat. And he does a lot of the uplifting storylines, or the ads for lines like that. And there's another guy who is spot on with humor. And if you need a funny script, some ridiculous thing, he'll come up with the craziest stuff that'll get sold through. That's his specialty, and he's done really well at it. You do have a voice just like artists have styles. copywriters have a specific voice and that they are better at. 

John Fish  05:57
And maybe that kind of gets to like the self selecting part. You know, like so and so's a little bit better at humor. So let's give them that or Oh, so and so is really good at making people cry. Let's give him the Procter and Gamble pitch. Okay?

Chris Hanna  06:12
I want to meet the person who's really, really good at making people cry. Like he walks into a meeting. And then he walks out and everyone is just like balling on like the coffee table or whatever. I want to meet that guy. So, Sam, since we're kind of talking about different specialties, why don't you talk about what makes a graphic designer different from an art director.

Sam McKinney  06:34
Mostly, it's concepting. Graphic Designer usually is just you're given stuff to make it look pretty. And that's your puzzle. So the idea is there you just need to put stuff together and make it look visually appealing. Whereas art direction you go in and come up with ideas, you have to sell that idea and then make it pretty, or at least be able to speak to how it will be pretty and then take it further. Also, graphic design typically is only visuals on products: paper, print, stuff like that. Whereas art direction is also you have to be able to manage a set. So it takes all of the skills that you could ever have you'd ever want. And you'd have to apply them in some way, basically.

John Fish  07:16
Yeah. And to that point, I just want to stress how important concepting is. The second point is to Sam's point about how you're working on a set and stuff is, and I'm not speaking from experience just experience of working with people, is just that this job is so about being able to work with people and get along with different personalities. And if you're not able to do that, it makes your job a lot harder.

Sam McKinney  07:43
Yes, it does.

Chris Hanna  07:44
Yes. Something that is something that I heard from a creative director that had really great advice was he said that, you know, each agency sort of has its own culture, and sometimes if you're really butting heads with people And you're trying to, you know, like sort of bridge the gap, but it's just not working for some reason, a lot of the time it can be because of like, whatever culture like the agency values. So there are some places that are very, very much focused about like, winning new business. And that's like the only thing that matters. Other places are all about getting headlines, some places are more about like people. Others are, I guess more about like the craft of that sort of, and I don't know, I just kind of liked the way that he phrased the whole, like, agency vibe thing, because that's very much a factor, I think, when you're trying to like get into the industry and trying to find your place and your fit.

Sam McKinney  08:40
Yeah. And if you do have problems with a partner, because sometimes it's unbalanced, and sometimes you'll get people who were hired on that don't have any skill or have a very specific skill or they're lazy or they whatever. There's a chance you can work with other people and get a new partner, but it's very small. Like normally you get stuck with someone or you're you work with them. And that's kind of who you are with for however long, so you have to try and make it work. So you need to be able to understand that person, understand what their motives are, and find a way to work with them, or just leave them behind. And just don't let them drag you down. Basically.

John Fish  09:23
It is like marriage in some ways.

Chris Hanna  09:26
Yeah. And like most careers, professions, advertising is very incestuous. What I mean by that is everybody knows everybody, right? So you don't really want to be pissing in anybody's coffee at work, so to say, just because you want to be able to make sure that you're kind of maintaining these relationships, you know, even when you're living in a big city like Los Angeles.

Sam McKinney  09:51
Yeah, it's a very small industry. You don't want to be the one that everyone talks and jokes about for years to come.  All right. Cool, guys. Well, what kind of got you all both interested in advertising? I don't remember exactly when I wanted to be an advertising, because I was pretty young. I just really enjoyed the short stories of commercials. Back when commercials were really smart, and billboards and all these things like just being able to visually change the world was pretty awesome. And I always wanted to do something that changes the world, but I never knew how to get into it. So I just kind of went through life, went through school trying to find a way to get to this and no one tells you how to get into advertising basically. So I went into graphic design, worked my way through design for I think I worked into it for like 10 years, and then moved out here because my wife is in film, and kept trying and eventually I figured out that I was doing it wrong. And then went to an ad school. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But that was that's, it's an interesting path. It's interesting also how different paths to advertising is and reasons for people being in it. It's it's pretty, pretty unique in that way.

Chris Hanna  11:16
Yes. Some people just fall into it somehow. Yeah, I remember I had this one interview with a team. And one of the guys introduced himself and said, "Well, I'm a failed screenwriter. So here I am as a copywriter."  Yeah, Chris, how did it How did you get into it? Yeah. So I think for me, it was maybe more instantaneous, then maybe it was for Sam. I, like Sam was also a kid that like, wanted to watch the commercials whenever they would come on. I didn't want to fast forward through them or anything. And so when I got to college, I went through, of course, the quarterlife crisis, where I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And I went through like, I took out the majors sheet of every single major that was available. And I just like checked them off of like, Okay, do I want to do this don't want to do that. And I did these informational interviews with a bunch of professors who are on campus to ask them like, Hey, what is this field? Like? What do you teach? What kinds of things can students go on to do? Which I think is really a great thing to do. Regardless of whether or not you're in a quarterlife crisis. It kind of like broadened my perspective of what I thought I could do. And the advertising professor who was on campus was really sweet. And I was like, yeah, this kind of sounds cool. But I didn't really know that creative was the thing that I wanted to do, because a lot of the program was dedicated more broadly to sort of marketing or public relations. And the thing that changed it for me was there was this field trip that the school's like public relations society went on, and the agency that they went to was sort of like a hybrid. They did mostly PR, but they also did a good deal of creative. The moment for me was when this creative director came and sat down. And he started talking about what he did. And he shared some of his work. And I had a light bulb moment where I was like, Oh, I didn't know that people get paid to do like really idea concentrated work. And after that, I sort of tried to figure out what I wanted to do. And I always knew that I was a pretty strong writer. So I naturally started pursuing copywriting. And like, Sam, after I graduated college, I was like, Okay, I've got all of these great blog posts in my book, and I'm going to be ready to apply to all those agencies. And of course, it didn't work out initially. So what I ended up doing was cold emailing people, sort of what I did with, you know, the professors at my university, but instead I went on LinkedIn, and I stalked the people who had the job title or the job history that I was really interested in. And I just cold emailed them and I was like, hey, I really want to do this for a living and I'm not able to break in, can you give me some advice? And nine out of 10 people didn't reply, but the one out of 10 people who did were super kind and super informative. One of them actually, I ended up finding the creative director who worked on one of my favorite TV campaigns ever. It's that Carl's Jr, shake ad, where the guy's like shaking the cow. And it's just like 25 seconds of that, and then the bumper on the end. I don't know why, but that just sticks out in my mind. It's like my favorite commercial. And I connected with that guy and talked with him. 

Sam McKinney  12:53
He talks about it all the time.

Chris Hanna  14:35
I do. It's such a great ad. If you haven't seen it, I highly encourage you to go out and see it now. Anyway, so after I like talked to those people, they all had something in common, which was that they had this emphasis on a portfolio or a book. And a lot of them were LA based and I was kind of local to the LA area. So They recommended this one school. And so I went on the first day, everything that I thought I knew had been kind of crushed, but it's okay, because they rebuilt me into a smarter creative boy. Who is copywriting.

Sam McKinney  15:15
How about you, john? 

John Fish  15:16
Yeah. So, you know, as as as corny as it is, what got me interested in advertising was Mad Men. I that was like, my first time when I realized, wow, that's something that you could do for a living. Because up until that point, you don't really it's, it is kind of one of those like shadow industries where you're, you don't know how it got how it came to be. But you're like, Oh, that's interesting. That's cool. How did that but once you find it out, you're kind of like, oh, I'll check that out. So I was in college. I was an athletic training major at the time, and I ended up making the switch to advertising. Advertising as a college degree is really focused on the business side of advertising, the account side of advertising. So I learned about media buying, media selling, more than the creative side of it. But I did take one creative class from a really awesome man named Mark Seacrest who was just like the sweetest dude, ever. He was an older gentleman, but it was a really fun class. And I was like, wow, this is something this is what I want to do. I want to do this. I was also smoking a lot of pot at the time. So I thought all my ideas were fucking kickass, right. Like most people that smoke a lot of pot. During college, also, I was on an experience called advertising team. Advertising team created a fake campaign for a real client, and then pitched it to that client at the end of the year. Our client was Pizza Hut. It was really fun. It was one of my first times like really collaborating with a group of people that we're all really interested and excited about something because group work usually sucks. But if you're doing group work with people that are all interested and have that same goal, it's pretty fun. We didn't win, unfortunately. But at the end of the year, we had alumni from my College, University of Idaho, go vandals, come up to Moscow, and one of them was a creative director at a big agency in LA. And he mentioned, and this is a segue into our next topic, but he mentioned Book Shop that was like, I was like, oh, okay, cool, because you hear all this, like, Oh, you need a portfolio, you need a portfolio, you need a portfolio. I was like, Okay, cool. Well, that would be nice. If I could do that. I ended up getting a job right out of college and moved to Seattle in advertising sales. I took a class outside of work at the Seattle school for visual concepts, which was cool, but they didn't give you the opportunity to create a portfolio, right. And then Two years go by and my wife gets into physical therapy school in Los Angeles. So we moved to Los Angeles, I'm thinking, Okay, advertising sales is doing pretty well. I'm gonna stick with that. And then I was talking to my mom, and she said, Hey, I know you really wanted to get into the creative side of advertising, and I found this paper that was shoved in a drawer at your desk at home, and it's talking about Book Shop, which I think is a pretty good segue into our next topic of advertising schools, portfolio schools in particular. So we're all alumni of Book Shop. So we're going to probably be a little bit biased.

Chris Hanna  18:38
Go fighting books!

John Fish  18:42
I would have to say that my experience in Book Shop has been so far so good, I'm, I'm done. I don't think I'm taking another class. But at the same time, if you are lucky, and you know what you want to do right out of college or run out High School, I'm sorry, then you could go to another another ad school, like creative circus or Miami Ad School. So I don't know. Do you guys want to talk about your experiences with portfolio schools and how you made the decision?

Sam McKinney  19:16
Yeah, well, there's a big difference between full ad schools and like smaller, and the major difference is cost. It can cost you a crap ton of money to go to a full Ad School versus something like Book Shop, the bigger schools, you'll have a full department behind you, you'll be able to make full on commercials, you're able to do everything because you have so much equipment there. You're paying for it, you might as well use it. Small a la carte stuff like like Book Shop, it's very much focused on the one thing that matters and that's concepting. The whole point of it is to get you to concept ideas better. So you get in you go through this what I think six classes?

Chris Hanna  19:58
Well, it kind of depends, because the last class is basically designed to be able to give you a piece, like a full campaign for your book. So it's like six classes from like, start to finish or whatever. But you tend to take the final Teams class multiple times.

John Fish  20:13
I just want to stress too, like everyone has their own path, right? And there's not one ABCD. I, for example, I'm probably more of like a, a, b, f, g type of person as as far as how I'm working on getting into the industry.

Sam McKinney  20:31
And I have one last point for all of this before we move on to the next fun question. You don't actually have to go to ad school to go, you could do all of this stuff. If you're like a brilliant ad person, and you come up with a book on your own writing, designing, doing everything, if at the very least, there is one thing you cannot get outside of ad school and that's your connections. Like the people we went to class with, me and John were in the same class. And we have friendships that are out of that class that we're going to know for the rest of our lives, probably. It's a small a small industry. So we're going to have those connections, the rest of our lives if we need help, if we need to get a job, whatever. And then the fact that each school has people from that school who's going to be out here, you're going to have connections there from that to like Book Shop's pretty prevalent out in LA. So we have a lot of people who know Book Shop, and they're like, Oh, yeah, we went to Book Shop too, we know, it's a good program. Let's

Chris Hanna  21:32
Maybe we'll hear from some of those people as special guests. 

Sam McKinney  21:36
Yeah, it's very possible. But that's, that's the main thing because this career is all about networking. You need to know people, and you can be the best artist or the best designer, the best idea person in the world. And if you aren't friends, with anybody in the industry, it's gonna be hard. 

John Fish  21:52
On top of that real quick, not only if you're not friends with anyone, but if you're a dick and people don't want to work with you, you're not going to get far, no matter how good you are. I promise, right.

Chris Hanna  22:04
On the topic of connections and networking and the value of the people that you know, let's talk about student awards for a second. Are they worth it?

Sam McKinney  22:15
Student awards are a great accomplishment. It's hard to win, takes a lot of work. It's a good way to have a carrot at the end, like show you what it really takes to win. In Book Shop, we do a One Show term where we work our asses off however many hours a week to try and come up with a campaign that they put out on a brief. It's the closest I think you'd be to an actual, like new business pitch outside of actually pitching new business. And the experience is worth it. Learning how to work with people who are really angry and annoyed and tired and don't want to do this shit anymore. That's a priceless experience. The award is worth it to a point. It'll get you into the door to get hired. But as soon as you're hired, it does not matter anymore. In my opinion.

John Fish  23:04
Well, I was on I was on Sam's team when we won a pencil for our campaign Buds Over Beer. Awesome experience. It was really fun. Our group put in so much work. And we came out with something that at the end of the day, you kind of knew was special. But that doesn't mean anything cuz is being judged. And since it's a, it's a judging competition, it might be awesome to you. But to Joe over here, it might be garbage, right. But luckily, we were selected and we won. In the end, I think the student award is worth it. Because it's a really cool trophy. I have it in my home right now. My wife is very proud of me. But to Sam's point, once you're in an agency, the award doesn't matter until you get other awards for your work.

Sam McKinney  23:51
You have to get the adult awards, not the student award. 

John Fish  23:53
Yeah, there's a couple of different awards in advertising. So one show is one that has adult awards. We also have the Clios is one, that's an adult one. Those are adult awards. I think they also have a student faction of awards.

Sam McKinney  24:12
I don't know if Clio does, there's the Young Lions , the D&AD I think has a young kid student or not kids awards. The One Show has 

Chris Hanna  24:21
I love how you guys are calling them adult awards, by the way.

Sam McKinney  24:26
Actual industry awards. Yeah, there's there's a few of the smaller awards. The One Show i think is 

John Fish  24:33
And unfortunately that this industry is so like, the self masturbatory.

Chris Hanna  24:39
Adult awards that are self masturbatory.

John Fish  24:42
Yeah, well, have you seen the pencil, Chris?

Chris Hanna  24:45
I have not won one, so I, no. Sam's shown me his pencil. Oh God, it sounds so dirty. I don't like this. Let's let's transition to something else.

Sam McKinney  24:59
Anyways, Internships Yay. Or nay. 

John Fish  25:03
You guys should take this one on.

Chris Hanna  25:05
So we need to get something clear here first, in that internships come in all different shapes and sizes in the industry. There's some internships that seem to be more focused just on like, getting people exposed to the industry. I don't know how many of them are, you know, actively trying to get you on the best possible track to get like a junior position there. I think each one is different. And some of them are gonna, you know, be more of the stereotypical, you know, go get me coffee versus others are going to be like, hey, we've got this brief, come in and work on it. I guess in terms of my internship, mine was a little bit longer than most it lasted around nine months. And I think that the reason I would say yay to this internship was because it just totally transformed sort of my understanding of what the industry really was. To be able to work inside an agency. And I think that Sam will agree that Book Shop and I probably most portfolio schools give you a pretty good understanding of what it's like to work in the industry. But until you're in it, doing it full time, often more hours than full time, and you've got all of the, you know, responsibilities of life, that sort of changes the way that you approach work, and the way that you are able to sort of like time manage. That was definitely a big one for me being able to time manage and, you know, get my best self to work every day to be able to come up with the best ideas possible. So I think I had a pretty positive overall experience. Sam, you've interned at a couple different places, right?

Sam McKinney  26:47
Yeah, I did a big agency and a small agency. The big agency, great experience, met a lot of cool people worked on a lot of cool stuff. I think my favorite part of my internship was when we ended up working on a new biz pitch, and I was there late, a lot to get things done and get things ready. But there are those times where you were literally in the room with a creative director like with shit on the wall. And you're, you're all just sitting there together, working through ideas and trying to clear things up. And I was like, Man, this is what I saw on Mad Men. And like, this is what I wanted to do. This is why I'm in this. So I was always trying to get to that. And that was my first internship. The smaller internship, I don't know. It was one of those situations where I got dealt a short end of the stick, doing a lot, but there's some really cool people I met there. I eventually got hired there, and that's where I'm currently at, and it's a great place. You do a lot more in a small agency. Big agencies, you're like you're on one brand and you're like my first internship. I was doing emails and banners as, as you would expect. On the second internship, I was doing TV scripts, I was doing campaign pitches like I was on so many different things. I don't even remember all of it. But then also they had us do some firm, they actually used the interns to sand down furniture and repaint it. They say it was for a business pitch. I did make a video out of it because it was part of the project. So it's fun, but like, really, you have a sanding down your patio furniture and painting it? Whatever. But definitely got the real feel of what an agency was like. And it was awesome. I would definitely recommend if you can, an internship because it gets you primed and ready for the actual thing, and it'll probably get you hired, eventually, unless you're lucky enough to just fall into a position. Usually you have an agenda. 

John Fish  28:46
So, I'll take the question real quick and say I have not done an internship. And this is kind of because this is a grim reality that I'm going to lay down on y'all. 

Chris Hanna  28:58
Here we go. 

John Fish  29:00
Internships don't have health insurance. For the most part. Unfortunately, I live in LA, I have to pay the bills. My wife is in school. So I'm not I wasn't I'm not in a position really to take an internship at this time. But I do think they are very beneficial. And, you know, when I'm ready to make that leap and can make that leap, and this pandemic is over, I probably will make that leap, you know, to an internship. If I could go straight to the workforce with my book, I would love to do that, too. I feel like I know what it's like to work in an agency just from talking with Chris and Sam all the time about it and kind of being annoying, probably and asking him What's it like? What's it like? So? How's it going? 

Chris Hanna  29:46
I think if anything, we're probably the annoying ones talking about agency life. I don't know I asked a lot of questions. And I think that is something that all people that are interested in this profession can do and should do because, and I'm going to sound like a beating a dead horse. It's all about being friendly. And most people in the industry are, from my experience, pretty friendly and human. So reach out ask questions.

Sam McKinney  30:17
I do you have a couple of tips for you, John, when you get into it, and for everyone else who's considering an internship. Make sure that you're taking a paid internship, you're not taking on unpaid internship, that's not okay anymore. It is minimum wage. They rarely pay more than that. So that's going to suck. So have savings if you need it, and then be hungry but humble. And that's going to be a lot-a theme that I want to have. You want to search out things, don't just do what you're told. Search out other things to work on. Find that project, listen to people, if they're like, Hey, we have a pitch coming up, like hey, I want to get on that. I would love the experience. Yeah, you probably won't ge shit to the client, but at least you'll get stuff presented to the creative director, show that you're hungry for it. And then you'll get critiques. And then eventually, you'll have something in your book. It doesn't have to go to the client for it to be a book piece. I have stuff in my book that didn't make it all the way the client, but I thought it was a kick ass idea. So we make it, put in your book, show it off, make it more than it is. Because the more you do it, the better off you'll be in the long run.

Chris Hanna  31:23
Yeah. And on that note, John, I think you said something great, that needs to be echoed. And that's to ask lots of questions. And I think everyone in their heads has this idea of interns being really annoying and always, you know, being where they shouldn't be. But honestly, I feel like a lot of the opportunities that I got was because I asked lots of questions and because I talked to people about like what they were up to, and I always was offering you know, help if they needed it. You know, don't like badger them every single day. But be present, I guess is a really good piece of advice.

Sam McKinney  32:00
You are an intern, you're new, you are not expected to know everything. Don't be afraid to be wrong. It's better to ask questions. 

John Fish  32:09
And, on that point to be social, like get out there and talk to people in the agency. You know, I think that's like good advice for any job is to like, you know, do that bullshit like, oh, how was your weekend type of thing, you know, like, within reason, obviously, but get to know the people you work with because you need to put your face in front of them so they know who you are.

Sam McKinney  32:35
Introduce yourself to anybody and everybody who will listen. Usually your internship your first week, is like them getting paperwork taken care of and figured out and you're just sitting around like, learning the lay of the land, learn the lay of the land and go talk to people.

Chris Hanna  32:53
I guess one more piece of advice that I would advise people and this is whether you're currently working or whether you're trying to break into the industry, is just keep making stuff with people that you really admire and respect. Because oftentimes, you'll find that the best work, or at least the work that you enjoy doing the most, is sometimes the stuff that, you know, you just start by shooting the shit. And then all of a sudden you're like, Hey, can we make that? And then you go and make it, and then it's awesome. So keep making things and do it with people that you like.

Sam McKinney  33:27
So what's your best advice for whoever? 

Chris Hanna  33:29
You know, the best advice that I have is advice that one of the people that I emailed actually sent me, and he just simply said, don't be precious. And at first I thought he was just talking about not being, you know, like a typical intern that is just trying to be precious with everything. But I think what he was trying to say was, don't be so precious with your work that you can't let it go.

Sam McKinney  33:54
Okay, what about you John? 

John Fish  33:56
Be kind. You know, treat, the golden rule. treat everyone the way you want to be treated. And while this industry is competitive, very competitive, it can do you no harm if you treat people nicely.

Sam McKinney  34:12
Cool. And my advice is I've been saying it a lot. Be hungry, but be humble. Try to do as much as you can, within your means. But be nice. Be humble about it. Don't be don't have an ego, let things go kill your babies.

John Fish  34:27
I don't know if we can talk about killing babies, Sam, that might be too political.

Sam McKinney  34:33
Kill Your darlings? 

Chris Hanna  34:34
This is a lot more than one piece of advice, Sam.

Sam McKinney  34:37
Yeah, I have a lot of advice. I'm sorry. And reach out if you want. If you have questions reach out to us. We'll be happy to answer those questions. 

Chris Hanna  34:43
Alrighty, thank you so much for joining us on our first ADvice ADtempted episode. We're always looking for ways to make our little show better. So please leave us a review on Apple podcasts or comment on our Instagram at @ADtempted,  a-d-t-e-m-p-t-e-d. And with that, we will bid you goodbye until the next time we attempt to give you advice that you probably don't need. 

John Fish  35:02
Bye! Outro music! doo doo doo doo doo