Chris Hanna  0:00  
Welcome back to another advice episode of AdTempted, where we attempt to demystify advertising for those who want to break into it. I'm Chris.

Sam McKinney  0:07  
I'm Sam.

John Fish  0:08  
And I'm John. 

Today's advice episode is a special one, mainly because we get to talk to a creative that isn't one of us.

Chris Hanna  0:18  
Our special guest is a creative, a writer, educator and a personal mentor. Jess McEwan. Welcome to the show.

Jess McEwan  0:24  
Hello. Hi, thank you for having me. This is exciting for me.

Chris Hanna  0:29  
It's exciting for us, too.

Jess McEwan  0:31  
And then I went to this garage away from my children. This is like a paid vacation for me.

John Fish  0:37  
Well, thank you for joining us. We're happy that we can give you a little bit of a break. But to start this off, could you please just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Jess McEwan  0:44  
Yeah, I'm Jessica McEwan. I'm a senior creative copywriter and born and raised in Los Angeles. I've got two kids, as I mentioned. So I have a full plate. And what else can I tell you about myself? I am, I'm an Aries. I don't actually know what any of that means. I just know that some people like really care about that. I'm, I'm the first day of Aries too so I think that's important. Oh, and my big claim to fame that I like to tell people is I am a former classmate of Meghan Merkel.

Chris Hanna  1:13  
Wow.

John Fish  1:15  
Are you still in touch? 

Jess McEwan  1:17  
No, unfortunately, but I do have like a very large paragraph in my yearbook from her one year. We did like she did drama. And obviously she did drama. And then I did drama, but not as well. So we liked each other. I like daydreaming about running into her.

Chris Hanna  1:31  
Oh, that's awesome.

Sam McKinney  1:33  
How did you get started in advertising,

Jess McEwan  1:35  
I went to college for creative writing on the East Coast. And when I was done, I had no idea really what to do with that? I didn't have like the next great American novel inside of me. So I moved home. And my stepfather, at the time was a producer of TV commercials. And so he got me some jobs as a production assistant, which is total, you know, just bitch work. But it was like pretty good money for someone fresh out of college. Okay, and it was freelance, so I would have time off, like when projects weren't happening. And so I kind of stuck with that for a long time, mostly because I was like getting paid decently. I didn't have to, like get super dressed for work or be in a corporate environment. I could kind of make my own schedule. I did that for a while. But I was kind of like production supervising towards the end. But I really did not like it. It is a lot of phone calls and budgets. And you're like the hub of everything. And I was like I would just watch what the people above me were doing, like what were line producers doing and it was so many like it was just so many numbers and budgets and overages and all this stuff. And I just felt like God, I don't have— any plus, you know, it's very grueling profession. So I was like, looking around at like the agency on set, being like, I remember the job that I was doing, I was on a job of doing a Bank of America commercial. And we were shooting in Fort Bragg in California, which is like up near Mendocino. It was just like miserable shoot where we were shooting like a fisherman and it we had these like, rain machines freezing. And I was like staying in a Best Western working in their lobby, like every day until midnight. And by the time like I'd get done working the only thing that would be open in town on McDonald's, right like McDonald's, like five days in a row or something. And then it's one morning, I had to run over to the agency's hotel to like, get them set up pre pro book. And I drove into town and it's it's in a beautiful bed and breakfast in Mendocino like, I come in, and they're like, the flowers are blooming. And it's gorgeous, like old Victorian feeling home and setting up the pre prologues and the agency coming down the stairs being like, "oh, man dinner last night was so good. Like, where are we going tonite?" Oh, my God. And I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, and the whole the joke was the whole time we were all working on this commercial. I kept saying this script doesn't make any sense. Like, it doesn't make any sense. I don't understand the story of this script. And that was the first time that kind of like, I felt like, all of a sudden, I was like, I could fucking do this. You know, like, these guys don't even know what they're doing and look with it. Look at the life they're living, you know, so I started like noodling on that for a while. I was like, you know, I want to be a copywriter at an ad agency but at the time, my view of it was very limited. I was like, I want to write commercials, because that's what I know. Had no idea that that's not like a role. Like I'm the commercial copywriter and also was like a little bit cocky like I don't need to go to school for that. Like I've been working in this industry for like the last 10 years. So I like wrote a bunch of scripts on my own thinking that would do something and it didn't. People were like, where's your book? Like you need a book. And that's when I literally one day Googled like Los Angeles, portfolio school or whatever. Because I quickly learned about the portfolio schools were gonna be like, $60,000 a year, I was gonna have to move to like, Atlanta or whatever. And I was, I was older, I was like, in my early 30s. And I was like, this is not, I'm not at that place in my life to fully uproot myself. So I found the Book Shop, it, you know, meets at night, I could keep working. And that's what I did. And I kind of like set down that path, I did it in a couple years, and then got a job working at RPA, where a lot of book shoppers go and started my career there. So that's the long and short of it.

Sam McKinney  5:43  
For our listeners who might not know what the Book Shop is, can you do a quick explanation?

Jess McEwan  5:49  
Book Shop is a portfolio school. For creatives, just like all, you know, like Brand Center, Creative Circus, which is on its way out, Art Center, Miami Ad School. The differences is that it's here in LA where there are not many schools. And it's not a full time program, like the other ones are, you kind of meet classes once a week. And so you do a lot of your development outside of class and is drastically more affordable than most of the other schools. And it does really turn out some of the best creative in the busines. Book Shop is very heavy on concept. I think a lot of schools will start like right off with like intense graphic design or execution. But Book Shop really puts an emphasis on developing concepts and insights, which, you know, lead to much stronger creative down the line, I think. 

Chris Hanna  6:38  
Absolutely. 

Jess McEwan  6:39  
Yes. And now, I'm also a teacher there, when I'm not dealing with the two small children. So yes, I've been teaching there for a few years as well.

John Fish  6:46  
Very cool. Yeah. So you know, looking around our virtual room that we have set up here, you know, it's no secret that advertising is depicted kind of as this, this boys club. So do you think that has made it like harder for you to get into the industry? And have you seen it change or AdTempt to change over the years that you've been in the industry?

Jess McEwan  7:06  
Great pun. Yeah, I mean, it is a boys club. You know, the thing that I think if you, if you dig a little bit deeper into that thought is people will say, like, for instance, when I worked at RPA, I think they said it was 50/50. 

Chris Hanna  7:22  
Yeah. 

Jess McEwan  7:22  
Which is great. But however, what I saw there, and what I see a lot of places is tons of women working at the junior— let's just talk about creative, other departments are other things, but like, at the, for creative, you know, Junior men and even senior level, I see a lot of women. It starts to drastically drop off at ACD, CD, and then particularly like, ECD, GCDs level, you know, really just like levels off, like I think, I mean, at some of the places I've worked, it's like, there are no women above, like an ACD level at all. And so that's, I think one of the like, the main issues, it's not, it's not that it's hard to get your foot in the door, it's that it's hard to get to the top. It is really like the issue I think a lot of places are dealing with. And of course, like I can only speak from my experience as a white cisgender woman, you know, I can't speak for what it's like for a black woman. I've worked cases where there were like, no black creatives at all, you know, large, creative departments. So that's like a different story.

Chris Hanna  8:24  
Yeah. So you were talking a little bit about your own identity. And I want to get into that a little bit more. How has your identity shaped the way that you've sort of navigated the industry, and you talk a little bit about growth, either on like a day to day basis, or more like holistically across the trajectory of your career.

Jess McEwan  8:44  
I mean, when I think about it on a day to day basis, like something I think about is when I started as an intern, and you know, I was like older intern, not like ancient but not like 23 Like a lot of the other ones. One thing that like, you know, I think we always notice about male creatives is that, you know, there's no like dress code, very relaxed, guys kind of like wear whatever. But it's not like Mad Men where we were like coming to suits, coming in every day. And so something I was like, very aware of as an intern, and a junior was I was like, how am I presenting myself every day, I refused for like, over a year, I did not wear a dress to work, because I was like, I didn't like it sounds like a weird thing to seem very aware of. It was like, I don't want to draw more attention to the fact that I'm a woman. And also, I think there's a stereotype to that, like in advertising, you'll see a lot of women in Accounts or in Production and usually typically Account people dress better than creatives because they're also client facing and so I was like, I don't want to ever look too nice. I don't want to look like an account person. So I was like, literally come to work like— She's kind of schlubby because I was like, I want to, you know, there's a joke, like dressed for the job you want, but it's supposed to be like wear a suit, you know, and but in my case, it was like dress for a job you want. So I'm gonna, like wear ripped jeans, and like, look like all the other guys. And that's just like a subtle thing that I think about all the time, which is sad, you know, that I was like, even in the way that I'm like, dressing and showing up for work. Not that I like I'm not super feminine anyway, it's not that I wanted to, like be wearing these silly dresses all the time. But I was like, I'm not gonna wear a dress, like I don't want to, I want to blend in as much as I can. And I also didn't ever want to make myself look too attractive, to be honest. Because I worked with other female interns who would come dress, you know, to work super cute, and they would get hit on. And I was like, I 100% do not want that at all. So I was like, I do not want to look too attractive, which I think is kind of like counterintuitive, like someone who would be like, I want to look cute at work I want you know, I want to be attractive. And I was like do not I do not want anyone looking at me like that at all. Because I know that the minute that you do that, that your integrity is compromised. So that's something that I thought about a lot as well. And those are just like day to day things. I think I still probably deal with those a little bit. I mean, additionally, which I haven't discussed is that I mean, I am married to a woman. So that's like another layer for me is you know, as like a female gay creative, who doesn't necessarily— I don't think that's the first thing people notice. Or think about me, I can sort of, you know, pass. And so that was like, another thing that I was always aware of too is like, I don't that's like another discussion I'm gonna have to have with someone if that if that comes up as someone's gonna, you know, ask me out or want to like ask me, you know, do you have a boyfriend or something like that, which is a conversation that's all happening all the time. And then just the other stuff about when you're in a room with a lot of men just thinking about how am I being perceived, if I have a strong reaction to something? Am I being too emotional? Am I being too bossy? Am I being too, whatever, like, these are the things that like think about all the time that I think that my male counterparts don't. And I've had to really train myself a lot as I've been like moving up a little bit to not, when I write emails, I like I'll write an email. And then I'll go back through it. And I'll take out some of the parts that are me just trying to be like extra cheerful and extra helpful. And just like make sure that my the real thing that I'm saying isn't getting lost.

Chris Hanna  12:40  
It sounds like finding how to present your voice to a room in a way that is, for lack of a better term, palatable to them is quite the obstacle. Do you have any advice or additional examples for those who may be in your position when they're in a room, and they have a reaction to something that is said, and they know it's not okay, or they know it's not working?

Jess McEwan  13:03  
I mean, some of it is also just personalities, I myself can tend to like not want to have a filter and have strong reactions. So I mean, for me, personally, something I just had to do. And this is from watching, like other higher level creatives, you know, is to just take a step back and have that reaction somewhere else. Like I once had a creative director, who I think saw me get like, kind of sad in a meeting about something and kind of had me come to their office later and was like, Listen, you come here to vent and flip out. This is a safe space to do that. But like, let's not do it in the room with all these other people. I think that's just good advice like period. They're really like related to me being a woman, but I do just have to. I've seen a lot of like creative directors who are men, the way that they present themselves was to like, "Hey, okay, what are we talking about here today? Okay. Alright, fix it. Okay, bye." You know, and I think if I were to do that, if I were to behave that way, people would say what's wrong, or she's rude, but it's almost like, cool and mysterious for men to be like that. And some of the creative directors who are high level people it means they're like, set up this. It's like persona where they are like, a little bit untouchable. And I think a lot of the women that I work with tend to be like, very friendly and very warm. And I think it gives them kind of less street cred.

Sam McKinney  14:33  
You mentioned about the going into a specific room to be very vocal about things. Are there any other ways that us or an agency can be supportive of the different identities?

Jess McEwan  14:45  
I think it's very easy to like, ask yourself constantly, oh, like how would I approach this situation? How would you know am I comfortable with this situation, but like something I've learned is that I think you really do have to sometimes like ask other people what they want. Ask people what they're comfortable with. Ask people, you know, just say like, Hey, from my perspective, this, what are other people in the room see or like, what? How do you look at this situation? Because I think a lot of times people, however they might be a minority have different perspectives, but they don't always feel empowered or welcome to share those perspectives. And so having someone that is in a little bit more of a position of power, even if you are not, you know, at a higher level, but power of being like a white man, it's to invite in that other dialog is really helpful. I think, when a meeting is wrapping up, instead of saying like, Okay, any questions, which is asking if there's questions, but feels a little bit like, let's keep moving on. Instead, take a pause and say, like, what are we missing? What haven't we thought about? What haven't we talked about? What isn't sitting right in this with other people like asking a question helps people you can say, like, Jessica, what are your thoughts about like what we've just discussed? Do you think that that makes sense? Do you see any issues with the way that we're approaching this is really helpful, and it kind of like invites dialogue, instead of like, shutting it out. 

Chris Hanna  16:21  
Yeah. And it also sounds like it invites those perspectives to be heard in a room where maybe they aren't like the dominant perspective.

Jess McEwan  16:30  
I was once in a pitch. And we were like, everyone's reading all these scripts, and somebody's like, written this script with um, drag queens, and everyone was just kind of like, okay! and like, but I'm looking around the room, and like, I'm not a drag queen, but I'm like a member of the LGBTQ community. And I was like, so I'm looking at it through like a lens, where I'm like, How does this come across to me? Like, is this performative? Is this, Are they, is a script doing it just to be cool, cuz it's like capitalizing on, you know, and collecting, like the drag, you know, movement for capitalism? like I was really putting it through all these lens, because that's how I do things. And no one like asked anyone in the room about it. They're just like, oh, it's funny. And then like, because I'm outspoken, I raised my hand, and I was just like, hey, like, this is problematic to me for X, Y, and Z. And everyone's kind of like, looking at me like, oh no! But, you know, and it's, it's a tricky, it's like two-fold, because like, I don't want someone to turn to me and be like, well, you're gay, like, what do you think, you know, cuz that's also putting like, a lot of pressure on me and singling me out. But I did keep thinking, well, if I wasn't in the room, it might have just gone forward. And it, it was problematic the way that it had been written. That's like, really, I mean, that's the value of like, really having people in the room that don't think like you do. One of the biggest barriers, I think that we deal with agencies, so typically are looking for like culture fit. But the culture is like white men. You know, obviously, that's what's going to be the best culture fit. And so it feels it's hard to hire outside of that, because maybe that's not a great culture fit. But I think there's a lot of discussion now about like, well, you don't want a great culture fit, you want someone that's going to disrupt your culture, because it's going to help you think about things differently. You want a lot of different people in the room. And I think one of the other things about maybe having not the like de facto identity of like, you know, I'm not a white man, opens me up a little bit more to the fact that like, there are different shared experiences, or different experiences that people are living. So like, I'm quick to say, like, if I'm on something, and it's, we're targeting a different racial background, like I just straight up and like, I don't, I'm not qualified to speak about them. Like I don't, I think sometimes it might feel easier for other people to just like, make a guess. And I'm like, I'm not qualified to speak on behalf of this community. I need either to work with someone who is or I need, like a lot of like, I need to run all my work through someone. Is it hitting the right tone? Is there anything I don't know? You know, I it's very easy for me to just kind of say like, Hey, I don't know.

Chris Hanna  19:18  
Absolutely. It's, you know, it's also probably intimidating for a lot of people who are coming into advertising to say, like, I don't know, because so much is thrown at you and you're kind of expected to just roll with the punches no matter what it is, even if you're uncomfortable talking about like a topic or viewpoint that is not your own.

Jess McEwan  19:40  
Yeah, and I mean, I think like that's the danger of I mean, that's how you wind up with like Kendall Jenner, Pepsi ad is like, in-house, and as probably a bunch of like, like minded people sitting at a table being like, this is great, you know, and you gotta like gut check some of this stuff with some someone outside. 

John Fish  20:01  
It seems like the agencies are really marketing themselves as like very diverse and very open. And they're almost competing with each other for how creatively diverse that they are. Right? So, in your experience, have you seen the agencies actually making changes from within?

Jess McEwan  20:16  
I think yeah, like, in the summer of 2020, all of a sudden, like, every agency was like, in the wake of George Floyd, all sudden, like, agencies were like, oh, shit we have to care about this now. And so I think for the most part, a lot of them, you know, kind of like, just talked a big game about, you know, here's what we're doing. A lot of them, it kind of fizzled out. And like, nothing happened with it. But we saw, like some other agencies with some good initiatives, there was one, it was basically like asking agencies to commit to like, 13% of their leadership being people of color, some of the big agencies did, like, kind of follow through with it, but a lot of them weren't able to do that. And, to me, I was like, that is just atrocious. You know, I ran the numbers at some of the agencies, I'm like, we're talking about like, three or four people here, like you can't hire three or four black people into your leadership? That's not a lot. You know, I've also seen recruiters say, well we just can't find any. And I'm like, Well, where are you looking? And where they're looking, is like VC Brand Center, Creative Circus, Miami Ad School, all schools that are a fortune. And require you to be of like a certain, you know, economic status, to be able to go to these schools. You'll hear like, recruiters will say, Oh, I don't look at like where they you know, went to school or who they are, I don't look at race, I don't see color, I just look at the best book. And it's like, well, the best book is, to me, highly subjective, because it's a couple of things. How are we determining what the best book is? And what lens are we looking at that through? Are we looking at that through like a white male lens? Are we looking at it through, "Well, what whose book has the best production value to it?" because you know, if you're like a writer, you can do that you can show, as we know, because this is what we do in Book Shop is you can show a great idea with a marker comp with stick figures. 

Chris Hanna  22:23  
Yeah.

Jess McEwan  22:23  
If what were say we're looking for a regreat thinkers, you know, it shouldn't be so dependent on this super polished book, I think a lot of times people are looking for these really polished, professional looking book, and then I kind of want to say like the thing, you're gonna hire them, and they're gonna work on banner ads, you know, like, why do we have why do we expect students to have these super professional looking books, when you know, you're not throwing them like on Super Bowl spots right away, you need someone that's gonna, like do junior level grunt work or for like, happens at all agencies. And so I think that's like a really big issue. I think that's one of the biggest barriers, but I will say, I do think things are getting better, depending on where you work. In 2016. I had an intern one day, I remember, tell me that I think we were talking about how we hate when people in a meeting will say like, "we'll ask the girls," like, we're not girls like we're grown women. And this intern said me like well actually, I'm not a woman at the time, I think they maybe consider themselves to be non binary or something. And I remember thinking like, oh fuck, good luck, because like, no one is gonna respect that at all. I was like, I could not imagine anyone in my agency like using they them pronouns or like respecting that at all. I was like that. And I remember at the time thinking, like, I don't even know like, what would happen if someone were to like, transition here, like, I couldn't see how that would work at all. Now, I'm working somewhere where there is someone who is non binary and does use they them pronouns. And I was in a meeting the other day, and this person was not in the meeting. And this is how I really was like, wow, this is progress. This person was not in the meeting. But we were discussing them because of their role in the project. And every time someone discussed them, they said they-them and they weren't even in the room. That to me was like some serious progress. And it just like wasn't discussed. It was just like, This is who this person is. This is how we talk about them. Not an issue. And I was really encouraged by that. I thought, like, that's great. That means that like we're getting somewhere, you know.

The culture change is happening. That's awesome. 

Sam McKinney  24:45  
It is awesome. 

Jess McEwan  24:46  
Yeah. 

Chris Hanna  24:46  
You had touched a little bit on like people's books and the way that they're perceived in agencies. Do you have any advice for students if they, if they're really passionate about a part of their identity, Do you feel like There's any advice you could give those people for either how to like weave it into like the bio in their book, or maybe how to showcase like a side passion project for something that they d?

Jess McEwan  25:10  
I try to always like, I think I have it on my resume somewhere that like, I'm good with LGBTQ+ issues. That's a marketable skill that I have. So many of these agencies are when it comes to like, people of color in the creative department are lacking voices, and don't have people in their creative department where they can say like, Hey, I am a member of this community. And like, you can basically do free research with me, I think that like, all of those things about you, that maybe make you different are marketable. And I think, yeah, anytime you can showcase anything like that, in a book, sadly, in this like World of capitalism, it's like, how can we take these skills and these parts of our identity and like, capitalize on them, and you know, show that they have, like, actual monetary value to these agencies, because they're set up to be a business, here's like, a good business reason why you should hire me, you're gonna have a more diverse point of view in the room, you're gonna make less terrible fuckups, you're gonna have a more authentic voice, your audience knows when someone is speaking to them in an inauthentic manner.

Sam McKinney  26:17  
Well, I think that's all the time we have for this episode. Thank you again for joining us.

Jess McEwan  26:22  
Wait, can I tell you guys one more story? Before we go? 

Chris Hanna  26:25  
Please! 

Jess McEwan  26:26  
I think I like thought it was going to come up with one of the questions and I was like, really excited to tell the story. But I don't I either, didn't I didn't remember. But this is a story that stayed with me and is really like, shaped the way that I think about things. And I was working on a client that was really difficult. I was doing a presentation to the client over the phone, which is already awkward. And I had like, written some line. I think it's for a banner. It was an airline. It was about in Texas in Houston, specifically, there's two airports. There's one called Houston Hobby. And then there's like George Bush International, or whatever. But this airline flies out of Houston Hobby. And so I'd written some line about like, "don't go to George Bush, like were in Houston hobby." And the line was, "don't beat around the bush, redeem your points out of Houston Hobby" or something, whatever. Not going to Cannes, right? But a client, like stopped the presentation, they like had to had us on mute, you know, like they always do and they unmuted themselves. And went, "sorry, we just need to interrupt you. We love that line, like loved it." And I was like, Oh, it's so great! Like, I'm a junior, they love this line. I liked it. So I was like, and they were like "that it even if we can't use it for this. We've got to use it somewhere else." Oh my god, like say, you know, this is a brand that loves puns.

And so that was great. So I'm feeling good about that. Because they like, I think I was like the only person they did that to. And so that's like meetings over. And everyone's like in the room like yeah, oh, great job job. Oh, bla bla, bla bla, and this creative director on the account comes over to me. And in a very, like not, not trying to like put me down. But in a joking way, kind of like slaps me on the back and says, "well leave it to the lesbian to write the line about bush." In front of a room of like, at least 20 people. And I was so flabbergasted at the time. It took me so many days, and honestly like years, still, I think about this all the time to just like process all of the layers of like, what happens there. And I think that he was trying to be like, yeah, like, I'm cool. Like, that's- you're gay, like, I can make this joke with you! We're on this level, but I never really said anything to him about it. And I never went to HR, I just decided like, I had to swallow it because I just was like, I don't really know where that goes, if I make a big deal about this. But that's exactly the kind of thing you never want to do. Because I was like, the more and more that I've like processed that like weird small moment. And it's like, you just, I was just, at like a good moment here. I've just like performed well. And you have now not only like nearly humiliated me, but like, also like, cut me, like try to insinuate in a weird way that like, I wrote this line because of who I'm married to, like, you know, it doesn't make any sense. And I felt so degraded by it. And instead of just saying like, Great job you'd like use my like identity as a weapon against me in a way. And it's just one of these moments that like I think I wouldn't call that a microaggression. micro aggression because it was so overt, but it kind of was a micro aggression in the way that they it was well, meaning. It's not like he, it's not like I was like sexually assaulted or something, you know, or like, called, like a slur or something like, it was joking, it was jovial, it was like friendly feeling. But it also made me feel like extremely like othered. You know, instead of like, I was one of the team, it was, and I think probably looking back what had happened is like, there were maybe like, his own insecurities about like, his role in the account or whatever. And just was a way to make sure that like, I knew my place. But yeah, that's a story that stayed with me forever, because I often wish in fact, this person then later left the company. And I really thought for a long time, I was like, I want to go to HR now, now that they're gone, I want to go to HR, and I want to tell them about it. And be like, what would have happened if I come to you with this information when they weren't there, because I wanted to, like get the full rundown. And I also was like, it felt like I was dishonouring myself to not tell that story to anyone. But it's funny how like, that is, that is just like a 10 Second thing that happened to me in like, either 2016 or 2017. And I think about it all the time, I still think about it all the time. And I still know this person. And I also see them, like, here and there or like online and like I don't talk about that with them. Because like, I don't want to get into it. But you know, that these are the these are the kinds of things that like, people of, you know, minority identities, sometimes experience at work that like, I don't know, that everyone's like, aware of, and, you know, they stick with us for like, a long, long time. And so I think, you know, what would have been great if, like, one of you had been in the room at the time, and had said this person like, whoa! like, What the fuck did you just say, you know, like, why would you say that, you know, that's what I wish had happened, I hope that I will open has stood up for me and said like, not okay, you know, like, because instead it's on me. And like, if I do something now instead, I'm overreacting. So I think that would maybe be the thing that I would like, leave people with, you know, if you're at all in any kind of position of power, whether that be in terms of your status, or your rank, or your identity, or anything, you know, just you have your eyes open. And if you see something happening, you know someone else at work or you see someone being marginalized or other or spoken to in a way that you don't think it's okay. You can always ask that person. Are you okay with what's happening right now? Like, because if someone has said to me, are you okay with that? I would have said no, I'm not okay with that. But nobody asked me that, you know. So I think it is about trying to use your whatever privilege you may have to look out for other people. And you don't want to be like you don't want to do like a like a Will Smith and take everything in your own hands and go up to people and say like, Hey, this isn't okay, what you did you know, because maybe that person doesn't want to stick up for themselves. But you know, is that person are you okay? With what just happened? Like, it seems weird to me. Are you all right? Do you need any help? No, you don't need any help? Cool. You got it great. But like, if you need anything like I'm, I'm here because I think a lot of times people feel like, Am I crazy? Like, am I did this just happen? Or Am I insane? You know?

Chris Hanna  33:26  
Yeah. 

Jess McEwan  33:26  
That was another thing I went through after that happened to me was I was like, am I overthinking this, am I making this a bigger deal than it is, you know, because I know other people heard it. And no one said anything, you know, some like some maybe it's just me, maybe I'm making too big of a deal of it. But those other people don't live my reality. So it's, I think, always like asking other people. You know, how can I support you?

Chris Hanna  33:51  
Yeah, thank you for telling that story. I mean, it's, it sounds like it was a lot in the moment and has been a lot ever since, you know, you've like thought about it and mulled it over in your head. 

Jess McEwan  34:02  
Yeah. And I'm, lucky, kind of the worst thing that's, that's kind of the worst story I have.

Chris Hanna  34:08  
But honestly, that advice about being an ally and being able to go up to people after something like that happens, no matter who you are, and just saying like, Hey, how are you feeling? Like was that okay? Is better advice than we could have asked for on this episode. So thank you for sharing that.

Sam McKinney  34:25  
Yes, thank you. 

Jess McEwan  34:26  
Yeah, I've been I've been walking around with that story waiting for the right waiting for the right time to air it and I just didn't know it'd be on your podcast.

Chris Hanna  34:34  
It's AdTempted! we're honored that you chose us to share your, share your insights with.

John Fish  34:40  
Well, that's gonna do it for this episode of AdTempted. Be sure to check out our website and social handles For more advice and ads for things that don't need them. 

Chris Hanna  34:49  
And thanks again to our special guest, Jess! 

Jess McEwan  34:52  
Thank you guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai